George Orr wrote:

Dirckman wrote:

I feel that there is hope...I was raised an Evangelical Christian, Southern Baptist to be exact...

I was raised Southern Baptist myself.  I am glad I had an upbringing that included religious instruction.  It provides a jumping-off point for thinking about religion.  It doesn't really matter what religion you're raised in, so long as you're taught something about the spiritual aspect of existence, even if it's all stuff you wind up rejecting.

I always considered it a real plus to have been brought up Baptist:  it's one of the most binary belief systems out there.  It's pass/fail when you're a Baptist; you're either clean or dirty.  No purgatory; you're either saved or you're damned.

And of course, as tojo pointed out, it's not really possible to be clean, to meet the ideal; so you're a dirty sinner.  And it's great to be a dirty sinner.  In a binary faith, fornicating is no worse a sin than dancing or swearing...or sassing your mama.  And you're already a sinner...well. 

I had me some fun in my youth, is what I'm sayin'.

So George, at any point did you actually fall for the Southern Baptist stuff and take it seriously?  I have to admit I did for awhile, I'm not saying I liked it though, it was a miserable lifestyle!!!

Hey, Sofie--thanks for posting Yellow Thunder Woman.  I needed some new fappin' material.

All I can say I know for sure, is that science texts and history books are a lousy guide to the spiritual dimension of our existence, and the Bible is truly awful as either history or science.

BUT--
As a member of our Western Civilization based on (however loosely) Christian/Hebrew traditions and ethics with Greek philosophy for leavening, the Bible does provide a handy jumping-off point for my spiritual journey.

I thank my lucky stars I married a good Lutheran woman, because say what you want about Lutherans (esp. Missouri Synod, the one to which we belong), everything is based on St. Paul's understanding of Jesus' central message.  Fundies ABSOLUTELY notwithstanding, the whole message of the New Testament is that WE ARE ALL SINNERS.  No one is perfect, and anyone who says otherwise is lying.  God set out the Ten Commandments as a mirror for us to see how we fall short, and how far we fall short.  BUT we are not worthless in his eyes--everyone has value, and everyone has been saved by his (undeserved) grace, not by any works we could possibly do.  According to Luther's understanding of St. Paul's understanding of Jesus' message, God is greater than anything, having created everything.  Therefore, the idea that you can do something--ANYTHING--that would compel God to do something in return, is ridiculous.

The basic message I carry with me is that I am not, never have been, never will be perfect, but I am forgiven by God, and so I can find a way to forgive others and live in peace.

Unless they're homicidal maniacs or douchebags that cut me off in traffic or elected officials or...

I'm working on it.

felch wrote:

wrote:

The basic message I carry with me is that I am not, never have been, never will be perfect, but I am forgiven by God, and so I can find a way to forgive others and live in peace.

God would love an atheist more than a believer.

Felch

Well, certainly an honest atheist over a hypocritical, judgmental believer!  Can I get an "Amen?"

whiskytangofoxtrot wrote:

Well, certainly an honest atheist over a hypocritical, judgmental believer!  Can I get an "Amen?"

burp

Felch

Last edited by felch (2008-03-30 01:17:55)

tojo2000 wrote:

What a load of horseshit.  Mankind has never needed any religious excuse to do any of those things.  More people have been killed in the name of land than religion, but you don't see people badmouthing landowners.  There are asshole religious types just like any other group, but their religion is no excuse for their actions, and doesn't cause them either.  If people use religion for that, it's because they wanted to do it already.

Agreed. The oil war has begun. The water war is next. Both will fly the flag of religion as steroids for the stupid mass. Religion kills. Get used to it.

What you dumbasses forget is the Shia Sunni conflict that dates back a millenium. Yes they hate us, but they hate each other more. Iran getting nukes worries Pakistan more than the US.

Felch

Last edited by felch (2008-03-30 02:20:47)

whiskytangofoxtrot wrote:

As a member of our Western Civilization based on (however loosely) Christian/Hebrew traditions and ethics with Greek philosophy for leavening, the Bible does provide a handy jumping-off point for my spiritual journey.

Let's not get too carried away with religious traditions, after all most major religions represent little more than codification of the basic tribal laws usually opportunistically co-opted into an government supported organization by charismatic and repressive power mongers.

God tends to be little more than a spiritual representation of the overall group conciousness.

Spirituality and religion are not reasonable, rational, or mentally and socially healthy...  Seriously now folks, how the hell can superstition, belief in the supernatural and just plain belief in magic do anything but limit mankind's ability to move forward?  The DSM IV lists all categories of mental disorders for people who claim to see or hear things that don't exist, it's about time society as a whole starts accepting religion and spirituality as a mental disorder so we can start doing something about it....  Jesus fucking Christ, we've put a man on the moon, split the atom, and decoded the building blocks of life.....  Why are we still stuck 10,000 years in the past with our thinking?

I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.

L.T.